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The compute costs and payback challenge facing AI “neolabs”

One post estimates that 1,000 GB300 GPUs would cost $125–150 million over three years, with 15–30% upfront. It argues that building a competitive model is only part of the challenge: startups also have to earn that investment back.

Eric ZelikmanEZ
DeedyDE
Ravid Shwartz ZivRS
10 Sources, 13d ago, first seen 13d ago

TLDR

One post examines AI “neolabs,” loosely defined as research startups raising large sums before production to fund compute. The author sees post-training a strong open-source model as a possible route to frontier performance, but warns of millions in spending on reinforcement-learning environments and the risk of being overtaken by a newer model while tied to a base model. In the post’s example, recovering $10 million in training costs at a 50% inference margin and a blended price of $2 per million tokens would require serving about 10 trillion tokens. The author suggests alternatives to direct competition, including different kinds of models or proprietary datasets large and useful enough to surpass frontier quality in a domain. Even then, the argument goes, demand and revenue relative to compute costs must justify the investment.

Combined views

396.4K

10 Sources, first seen 13d ago

2.8K likes238 comments2.6K saves187 reposts

Combined views

396.4K

10 Sources, first seen 13d ago

2.8K likes238 comments2.6K saves187 reposts

Sentiment

Positive52.1%47.9%Negative

Summary

Positive replies praised the clear bull case on neolab economics and hardware clusters for highlighting compute costs and risks, while negative replies called the posts incomplete or like AI slop.

Based on 137 sentiment-bearing replies from 129 accounts across 3 conversations.

Featured Source

Sentiment

Positive52.1%47.9%Negative

Summary

Positive replies praised the clear bull case on neolab economics and hardware clusters for highlighting compute costs and risks, while negative replies called the posts incomplete or like AI slop.

Based on 137 sentiment-bearing replies from 129 accounts across 3 conversations.

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10 Sources

Deedy@deedydasThe economics of a Neolab. A neolab is loosely defined as a startup of AI researchers who raises a lot of money pre-production to be able to finance GPU compute to take on a large AI problem. To buy 1000 GB300s or ~14 NVL72 racks will set you back $125-150M for 3yrs with 15-30% upfront. That’s about ~2-2.5MW. Thats about enough to do 10^25 flops a quarter and get to a GPT-4 level model which is 1-2 OOMs off frontier for pretraining. If you post-train on a great open source model, you have a better chance of getting to frontier. The risks are a) you need to spend millions on RL environments too and b) being lapped by another model release while being tied to a base model. For this to payback, you need to give your customers a better and ideally cheaper inference service than a base model and serve them for long enough to recoup your large investment. Even at 50% margin on inference, to recoup $10M in training means serving ~10T tokens (!) if you price like Fable / Astra given a standard cache read / input / output split ($2/M blended). And you have to justify being better than a release like Opus 5.5 which is even cheaper. Often, you end up charging your customers a huge premium in terms of platform fees and compute fees on top of pure inference. Meanwhile, every hour you’re not utilizing your GPUs you are burning money so you typically resell this compute back to a broker or run inference for open models / resell spot instances. At below a ~60% utilization on spot, you will still lose money. Add to that insane cost of talent. So what can you do with the compute? - Not play the model game at all. - Play an entirely different model game (Jev, World Labs) that if big labs played, would either a) cannibalize their business or b) be incrementally not significant revenue c) would cause too much distraction from the main main thing - Acquire a proprietary data set (Peridodic Labs) in enough volume in a domain of usefulness to eclipse frontier quality. Often happens in robotics, biology, chemistry. If you do overcome the challenge of building a model that is useful and well priced beyond big labs models, given the huge price of compute, you still need to play in an area where the revenue / compute ratio is signficant and market demand is large enough to payback your compute spend. It is a difficult game.13d
Ravid Shwartz Ziv@ziv_ravidThe main problem is that it ignores the elephant in the room: the main goal of most of the neolabs is to create enough fomo that someone will buy them13d
Eric Zelikman@ericzelikmanOr, build a cluster and own the hardware, make your money go way further, still have a valuable asset after 3-5 years, and make a differentiated model bet. That's what humans& did Huge thanks to @DeepInfra and to @nvidia @Supermicro for working with us to make it happen13d
Pedro Domingos@pmddomingos@deedydas It's a difficult game for any one neolab, but take 100 of them and the odds that they'll beat the frontier labs to something important are very good.13d
Leo Polovets@lpolovetsNot subtweeting any specific company, but I sometimes wonder if neolab valuations/acquisitions are an organized way for exceptional teams to negotiate great pay packages. Basically "we gathered a few percent of the world's top AI experts, what's that worth to a $500B+ acquirer?"11d
John Thickstun@jwthickstun@ericzelikman I've done this same calculation over the past decade for academic compute. Always more efficient to buy than rent. I assumed that there were better bulk-rate deals for companies with large cloud contracts, but sounds like the smart calculation works out the same way in industry!11d
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    DeedyRavid Shwartz Ziv

    10 Sources

    Deedy@deedydasThe economics of a Neolab. A neolab is loosely defined as a startup of AI researchers who raises a lot of money pre-production to be able to finance GPU compute to take on a large AI problem. To buy 1000 GB300s or ~14 NVL72 racks will set you back $125-150M for 3yrs with 15-30% upfront. That’s about ~2-2.5MW. Thats about enough to do 10^25 flops a quarter and get to a GPT-4 level model which is 1-2 OOMs off frontier for pretraining. If you post-train on a great open source model, you have a better chance of getting to frontier. The risks are a) you need to spend millions on RL environments too and b) being lapped by another model release while being tied to a base model. For this to payback, you need to give your customers a better and ideally cheaper inference service than a base model and serve them for long enough to recoup your large investment. Even at 50% margin on inference, to recoup $10M in training means serving ~10T tokens (!) if you price like Fable / Astra given a standard cache read / input / output split ($2/M blended). And you have to justify being better than a release like Opus 5.5 which is even cheaper. Often, you end up charging your customers a huge premium in terms of platform fees and compute fees on top of pure inference. Meanwhile, every hour you’re not utilizing your GPUs you are burning money so you typically resell this compute back to a broker or run inference for open models / resell spot instances. At below a ~60% utilization on spot, you will still lose money. Add to that insane cost of talent. So what can you do with the compute? - Not play the model game at all. - Play an entirely different model game (Jev, World Labs) that if big labs played, would either a) cannibalize their business or b) be incrementally not significant revenue c) would cause too much distraction from the main main thing - Acquire a proprietary data set (Peridodic Labs) in enough volume in a domain of usefulness to eclipse frontier quality. Often happens in robotics, biology, chemistry. If you do overcome the challenge of building a model that is useful and well priced beyond big labs models, given the huge price of compute, you still need to play in an area where the revenue / compute ratio is signficant and market demand is large enough to payback your compute spend. It is a difficult game.13d
    Ravid Shwartz Ziv@ziv_ravidThe main problem is that it ignores the elephant in the room: the main goal of most of the neolabs is to create enough fomo that someone will buy them13d
    Eric Zelikman@ericzelikmanOr, build a cluster and own the hardware, make your money go way further, still have a valuable asset after 3-5 years, and make a differentiated model bet. That's what humans& did Huge thanks to @DeepInfra and to @nvidia @Supermicro for working with us to make it happen13d
    Pedro Domingos@pmddomingos@deedydas It's a difficult game for any one neolab, but take 100 of them and the odds that they'll beat the frontier labs to something important are very good.13d
    Leo Polovets@lpolovetsNot subtweeting any specific company, but I sometimes wonder if neolab valuations/acquisitions are an organized way for exceptional teams to negotiate great pay packages. Basically "we gathered a few percent of the world's top AI experts, what's that worth to a $500B+ acquirer?"11d
    John Thickstun@jwthickstun@ericzelikman I've done this same calculation over the past decade for academic compute. Always more efficient to buy than rent. I assumed that there were better bulk-rate deals for companies with large cloud contracts, but sounds like the smart calculation works out the same way in industry!11d
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