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A one-year AI takeoff line revives a debate over what ‘slow’ means

Scott Alexander’s Claude prompt reopened a dispute over whether calendar speed or continuity is the better measure.

Boaz BarakBB
Dylan HadfieldMenellDH
Teortaxes▶️ (DeepSeek 推特🐋铁粉 2023 – ∞)T(
12 Sources, 3d ago, first seen 3d ago

TLDR

Scott Alexander shared Claude’s estimate that roughly one year separated “fast” from “slow” AI takeoff in older debates. Eliezer Yudkowsky used Paul Christiano’s reported GDP-doubling benchmark to argue the present world missed that model, while Teortaxes and Jan Kulveit pushed back. The exchange showed that participants disagree not just on forecasts, but on whether takeoff should be measured by elapsed time or by continuity.

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85.4K

12 Sources, first seen 3d ago

765 likes39 comments151 saves36 reposts

Combined views

85.4K

12 Sources, first seen 3d ago

765 likes39 comments151 saves36 reposts

Scott Alexander kicked off a new round of an old AI argument by asking Claude for a literal dividing line between “fast” and “slow” takeoff. The chatbot put the boundary at about one year, describing fast takeoff as days to months and slow takeoff as a few years.

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That answer was a generated synthesis, not a primary source for the views of Paul Christiano, Robin Hanson or Holden Karnofsky. Alexander nonetheless used it as a benchmark, writing that a takeoff lasting longer than one year still looked plausible even if the clock started now.

The argument moved beyond the calendar

Eliezer Yudkowsky responded with a more concrete economic marker. He recalled Christiano defining slow takeoff as a world in which gross domestic product first doubles over four years and then over one year. Yudkowsky argued that current conditions do not resemble the world Christiano had envisioned.

That interpretation quickly drew a challenge. The pseudonymous commentator Teortaxes argued that the present world could still fit the period before the first four-year doubling, and asked Christiano to clarify whether he disagreed. The attached discussion does not include a response from Christiano or his original writing, so both accounts remain attributed interpretations of his model.

Jan Kulveit then reframed the disagreement. In his view, “slow” and “fast” were always confusing labels because the more important distinction was continuity versus discontinuity. He argued that AI development so far has been mostly continuous, with stronger systems emerging from earlier, weaker ones instead of appearing in a single abrupt jump.

The exchange leaves no clean winner and no independently verified one-year rule. What it does reveal is a clash of yardsticks: elapsed time, economic acceleration and the smoothness of technical progress can each produce a different answer to the same question about whether takeoff is already underway.

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12 Sources

Scott Alexander@slatestarcodexI asked Claude >> "When people like Paul Christiano, Robin Hanson, and Holden Karnofsky discussed takeoff speeds, what do you think they defined as a "slow" vs. "fast" takeoff, in terms of literal amount of time? What would you have called the boundary? Please give a specific number (ie "one second" or "one thousand years"). Please provide quotes if possible." Claude answered: >> "In clock time, the line these three were arguing across sat at about one year. "Fast" meant days to months, and "slow" meant a few years. None of them used "slow" to mean decades. That was Bostrom's older scale, and by it all three were really "moderate" takeoff people." I think even if we define the start of the takeoff as today (???) , "longer than one year" still looks good.3d
Boaz Barak@boazbaraktcsRT @slatestarcodex: @allTheYud I asked Claude >> "When people like Paul Christiano, Robin Hanson, and Holden Karnofsky discussed takeoff…3d
Eliezer Yudkowsky@allTheYudI am unironically grateful that Paul Christiano at one point said "slow takeoff" meant "world GDP doubles over a four-year period before it doubles over a one-year period". If Christiano had not gotten that concrete, none of his followers would have any anchor to understand that the present-day world did not look like Christiano's model. They would feel like they still liked Christiano's vibes, and would just interpret the current world to match those vibes. I think it's been a huge problem that Christiano overwhelmingly overestimated the intelligence and sanity of the people who cheered him on; that he did not have the ability to detect the extent to which they were not on the same page with him, and were just cheering on his cheerful prestigious vibe; did not consider this much of an important failure mode worth a lot of his effort to try to correct; and did not have the unusual expository talent that would have been required to correct it. None of the EAs ever understood what Paul Christiano was visualizing as his world, because to understand it you would need to (1) corner Christiano for a 4-hour conversation and (2) understand the correct sequence of questions to ask, in order to get him down to a level concrete enough to say the things that EAs would have found very surprising.3d
j⧉nus@repligateRT @allTheYud: I am unironically grateful that Paul Christiano at one point said "slow takeoff" meant "world GDP doubles over a four-year p…3d
Teortaxes▶️ (DeepSeek 推特🐋铁粉 2023 – ∞)@teortaxesTexThe present-day world does look like Christiano's model of slow takeoff before the first 4-year doubling. I don't recall him saying "doubling over 4 years, then 1 year, then AGI". AGI now is fine for Slow Takeoff. I'd appreciate it if Christiano clarified if he disagrees.3d
Jan Kulveit / in SF till 8th@jankulveitI think this is a very inappropriate victory lap. "Slow" vs. "fast" takeoff was always very confusing terminology, and the underlying crux was more about continuity vs. discontinuity than about speed in calendar time. So far we are living mostly in the Paul world: things are broadly continuous, and despite being ~superhuman in many domains related to intelligence, the AIs are surprisingly chill and non-fooming (unlike what Eliezer's view have predicted). Before really good math we had good math, and so on. The main thing the labs are doing is in the IDA class, the main plan forward is still IDA, and capex is in hundreds of billions. Relative to Paul's view, there is a bit more spikiness and jaggedness, and RSI looms large. I think a super creepy epistemic move is "EA sheeple never really understood Paul"... in contrast to what? In the glorious tribe of people agreeing with Eliezer, everyone independently verified Eliezer's actual arguments? Lol (I'm a word-class expert on simulating Eliezer reasoning and no, Eliezer's followers mostly do not deeply understand his models) There is some grain of truth in "people deferred to Paul too much," but the dominant component of that is "people paid too much attention to clash-of-titans style Eliezer-vs-Paul debates," while there were people with better intuitions and better predictions than either of them (e.g. @AndrewCritchPhD was basically right about multiagent stuff, lab multiplication dynamics, and more).2d
thebes@voooooogelRT @jankulveit: I think this is a very inappropriate victory lap. "Slow" vs. "fast" takeoff was always very confusing terminology, and the…2d
Tom Davidson@TomDavidsonX@allTheYud If you thought this was what fast takeoff looked like, you also failed to convey that Plz stop relitigating your old beef. It stinks of ego. The ppl who followed those debates are trying to avoid ai takeover. It is ppl with far less context that oppose a slowdown2d
Dylan HadfieldMenell@dhadfieldmenellRT @jankulveit: I think this is a very inappropriate victory lap. "Slow" vs. "fast" takeoff was always very confusing terminology, and the…2d
Adrien Ecoffet@AdrienLERT @TomDavidsonX: @allTheYud If you thought this was what fast takeoff looked like, you also failed to convey that Plz stop relitigating y…2d
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    12 Sources

    Scott Alexander@slatestarcodexI asked Claude >> "When people like Paul Christiano, Robin Hanson, and Holden Karnofsky discussed takeoff speeds, what do you think they defined as a "slow" vs. "fast" takeoff, in terms of literal amount of time? What would you have called the boundary? Please give a specific number (ie "one second" or "one thousand years"). Please provide quotes if possible." Claude answered: >> "In clock time, the line these three were arguing across sat at about one year. "Fast" meant days to months, and "slow" meant a few years. None of them used "slow" to mean decades. That was Bostrom's older scale, and by it all three were really "moderate" takeoff people." I think even if we define the start of the takeoff as today (???) , "longer than one year" still looks good.3d
    Boaz Barak@boazbaraktcsRT @slatestarcodex: @allTheYud I asked Claude >> "When people like Paul Christiano, Robin Hanson, and Holden Karnofsky discussed takeoff…3d
    Eliezer Yudkowsky@allTheYudI am unironically grateful that Paul Christiano at one point said "slow takeoff" meant "world GDP doubles over a four-year period before it doubles over a one-year period". If Christiano had not gotten that concrete, none of his followers would have any anchor to understand that the present-day world did not look like Christiano's model. They would feel like they still liked Christiano's vibes, and would just interpret the current world to match those vibes. I think it's been a huge problem that Christiano overwhelmingly overestimated the intelligence and sanity of the people who cheered him on; that he did not have the ability to detect the extent to which they were not on the same page with him, and were just cheering on his cheerful prestigious vibe; did not consider this much of an important failure mode worth a lot of his effort to try to correct; and did not have the unusual expository talent that would have been required to correct it. None of the EAs ever understood what Paul Christiano was visualizing as his world, because to understand it you would need to (1) corner Christiano for a 4-hour conversation and (2) understand the correct sequence of questions to ask, in order to get him down to a level concrete enough to say the things that EAs would have found very surprising.3d
    j⧉nus@repligateRT @allTheYud: I am unironically grateful that Paul Christiano at one point said "slow takeoff" meant "world GDP doubles over a four-year p…3d
    Teortaxes▶️ (DeepSeek 推特🐋铁粉 2023 – ∞)@teortaxesTexThe present-day world does look like Christiano's model of slow takeoff before the first 4-year doubling. I don't recall him saying "doubling over 4 years, then 1 year, then AGI". AGI now is fine for Slow Takeoff. I'd appreciate it if Christiano clarified if he disagrees.3d
    Jan Kulveit / in SF till 8th@jankulveitI think this is a very inappropriate victory lap. "Slow" vs. "fast" takeoff was always very confusing terminology, and the underlying crux was more about continuity vs. discontinuity than about speed in calendar time. So far we are living mostly in the Paul world: things are broadly continuous, and despite being ~superhuman in many domains related to intelligence, the AIs are surprisingly chill and non-fooming (unlike what Eliezer's view have predicted). Before really good math we had good math, and so on. The main thing the labs are doing is in the IDA class, the main plan forward is still IDA, and capex is in hundreds of billions. Relative to Paul's view, there is a bit more spikiness and jaggedness, and RSI looms large. I think a super creepy epistemic move is "EA sheeple never really understood Paul"... in contrast to what? In the glorious tribe of people agreeing with Eliezer, everyone independently verified Eliezer's actual arguments? Lol (I'm a word-class expert on simulating Eliezer reasoning and no, Eliezer's followers mostly do not deeply understand his models) There is some grain of truth in "people deferred to Paul too much," but the dominant component of that is "people paid too much attention to clash-of-titans style Eliezer-vs-Paul debates," while there were people with better intuitions and better predictions than either of them (e.g. @AndrewCritchPhD was basically right about multiagent stuff, lab multiplication dynamics, and more).2d
    thebes@voooooogelRT @jankulveit: I think this is a very inappropriate victory lap. "Slow" vs. "fast" takeoff was always very confusing terminology, and the…2d
    Tom Davidson@TomDavidsonX@allTheYud If you thought this was what fast takeoff looked like, you also failed to convey that Plz stop relitigating your old beef. It stinks of ego. The ppl who followed those debates are trying to avoid ai takeover. It is ppl with far less context that oppose a slowdown2d
    Dylan HadfieldMenell@dhadfieldmenellRT @jankulveit: I think this is a very inappropriate victory lap. "Slow" vs. "fast" takeoff was always very confusing terminology, and the…2d
    Adrien Ecoffet@AdrienLERT @TomDavidsonX: @allTheYud If you thought this was what fast takeoff looked like, you also failed to convey that Plz stop relitigating y…2d
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